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That whole litter has done well Dan Hoffman an I have Diamond I raised that litter your pup is out of Diamond is a reproducer has over 50 pups on the ground she will be bred to Nitech Double Springs Woodrow soon

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Miracle Hills Kennels
Owner: Brent Bowling 918-421-0043

Nitech Double Springs Woodrow (2015 Performance Sire)
Nitech True Blue Maybe
Miracle Hills Big Nasty Girl
Woodrows Sugar ~ n~ Spice

Don't settle for less strive for the best

Re: Echo and Smokey River

quote:

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Originally posted by harveycmd
I discovered this thread a few days ago. I've enjoyed reading over most of the posts. It's been helpful and answered some questions I had about tracking style, winding ability, coldness of nose, when to start pups, etc.

This may have been discussed, but I didn't see it. Can experienced houndsmen speak to the similarities and differences between the Echo line and the Smokey River line? Obviously Echo himself was Smokey River bred through his dam, but it's clear that many, if not most, hunters like to continue crossing back to Smokey River blood. What is it that works when this is done? And what does the Rambo line that is also often popular as a crossing element add?

I'm not try to argue or say one line is best. I just want to learn what I can.

Thanks,
Chris Dacus

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It takes a big man to cry; it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man.

quote:

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Originally posted by harveycmd
John, thanks for the information.

Echo dogs are probably best known for track speed and sheer go and energy. Did JBS Cheif pass the same qualities?

Is there consensus on the qualities of the post JBS Cheif Smokey River dogs? Most of the Smokey River dogs bred with the Echo dogs are directly descended from Cheif, or Cheif's sire and dam, or Blue Jean's Tramp. Did Tramp possess the qualities going back to Smokey River Blue Diamond Jim?

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It takes a big man to cry; it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man.

harvey

I think John is pretty much got you on the right path. Smokey River was a kennel name and it was also as successful as any kennel out there. Basically Warren did what nobody else would. He had no problem putting someone elses kennel name on some papers if he thought the cross would work (he was usually right because he produced some top hounds). If you look at most of the Rambo dogs that get crossed into these dogs you will notice they usually have some smokey river behind them. In my opinion, and I never have spoke with Troy about this so it is just a opinion. Notice the Rambo dogs papers and you will find the s.r. dancer cross in there. Echo II also came from a sister of S.R. Dancer. The cross that shows tramp basically traces back to the old echo cross as tramps mom n old echo where from the same cross (hope I have all of this right as im strickly going off memory). honestly the thing that makes these hounds special is they operate "for the most part" the same.......alone or with company. jmo

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" an old wood burnin stove with no
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405-471-7372

--------------------Gr Nt Ch Platner's Bl. Mash
---------------Ch Gr Nt Ch Slife's Blue Rambo
--------------------Nt Ch Jacopian's Blue Sally
----------Gr Nt Ch Gr Ch Smiley's Blue Rambo II
--------------------Gr Nt Ch Uchtman's So. Blue Hawk
---------------Ch Gr Nt Ch Smiley's Misti Blue
--------------------Nt Ch Smiley's Rock Ann
-----Gr Nt Ch Gr Ch Clear River Diamond Jim
--------------------Nt Ch Dryfork Blue Spud
---------------Smokey River Blue Spud
--------------------Smokey River DTS Mandy
----------Gr Nt Ch Clear River Curlee
--------------------Gr Nt Ch Gr Ch Sexton's Blue Jimmy
---------------Nt Ch Smokey River Be's Blue Jean
--------------------Nt Ch Smokey River Jbell's Be
Gr Ch Gr Nt Ch Clear River Blue Diamond Jimmy HTX2
--------------------Nt Ch Dryfork Blue Spud
---------------Nt Ch Smokey River JBS Cheif
--------------------Smokey River BB's J-Bell
----------Ch Gr Nt Ch Smokey River Chiefs Bl Dancer
--------------------Nt Ch Rockcreek Blue Smokey
---------------Harlin's OK Blu Punkin
--------------------Uchtmans Dottie
-----Nt Ch Clear River Blue Slammer
--------------------Nt Ch Smoky River Cryin Jack
--------------Gr Ch Oklahoma Hard Rock
--------------------Smoky River Maybell II
----------Ch Gr Nt Ch Hefley's Bros KC
--------------------Vaughn's Blue Bo
---------------Hefley's Bros. May
--------------------Nt Ch Hefley's Bros. Glassey

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" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

this is basically echo 2 agains bottomside. If you notice, curly is also a littermate to tramp, which again, their dam Jean was a sis to old echo. then the Dancer cross is back in there. the bottom side of the slammer female has a lot of the same dogs as the bottom of dancer. I believe that rockcreek smokey was out of Oklahoma hard rock

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" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

The Rambo dogs are action packed and independent.

Rambo II females have historically been good reproducers.

__________________
It takes a big man to cry; it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man.

quote:

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Originally posted by harveycmd
Thanks, Tom. I'm pretty sure you are right about Tramp's dam being a littermate sister of Echo. This goes back to the Smokey River breeding of Echo's dam. What is striking about the continuation of the Echo line is the consistency of the Smokey River crossing. Could this be a way of trying to maintain the original line crosses that produced Echo?

Was Slife's Blue Rambo a head up, fast track, quick locating dog? What about Smiley's Blue Rambo II?

How did Tramp operate?

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" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

Im sorry but I cant help you with what you're asking. You would have to ask Troy or the folks who bred the dogs. If I was guessing "which I am" I would say the Rambo II dogs and the echo dogs share a lot of the same traits that you have mentioned. The heads up winding ability and split treeing is what made echo II so popular. Again, if you notice, the dogs that troy has breed always go back to some of the original crosses, either directly or through littermates. Think Jean, curly, tramp, echo, dancer, chief and jbell. remember old echos dam was a littermate to chief. This is just what I recognize when I look at the peds of these dogs and especially of you extend it you will see a lot of the same dogs or crosses. I think Troy has done a good job and the pups that I have raised from his crosses are batting 100%. Rather I kept them all or not every single one would tree a coon alone.

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" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

I am surely no expert on much of anything, but I am like a lot of us. I get on here and blather my opinions.

I think Echo dogs reproduce to type pretty well. Troy has done a real job of fixing the traits he looks for in that line.

I also think that the Echo blood benefits from being crossed on other lines, and does better when combined with other blood.

I think Rambo and Smoky River dogs mostly contribute a hybrid vigor when bred with Echo.

They probably help to stabilize physical type and keep the offspring from being squirrely in their dipositions from too much inbreeding.

But that is a theory of mine, and one that might not be too right.

Tom is way more knowledgeable than me.

__________________
It takes a big man to cry; it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man.

Studying pedigrees and asking questions is a valuable tool.

But the most valuable of all is burning through boot leather learning the individuals that you've got tied up out behind the house.

Hunt those hounds hard and find out what you've got.

Pedigrees tell you what you ought to have; hunting tells you what you've really got.

__________________
It takes a big man to cry; it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man.

Troy is a successful breeder partially because he is a hard hunter.

That enables him to make smart decisions regarding his hounds.

__________________
It takes a big man to cry; it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man.

Good string of knowledge here. Thanks for all of the info.

__________________
Chris Powell
Houndsman XP Podcast

Top

Top

grdgthr to echo II again and jones lethal weapon (double springs pete x double springs annie)

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" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Jones


grdgthr to echo II again and jones lethal weapon (double springs pete x double springs annie)

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It takes a big man to cry; it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man.

thanks John. she sounds better now. quick lil track dog lol

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" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Jones
thanks John. she sounds better now. quick lil track dog lol

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__________________
It takes a big man to cry; it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man.

Sounding good Tom!!!

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J. Bradford

if this lil gyp was a hog she'd be about ready to butcher. just look at those hams

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" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

Tom, she's built like Zip.

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J. Bradford

she sure is, sounds a lot like him too but maybe a little deeper tone. man she will make a garmin dial through some numbers in a hurry lol

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" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Jones
man she will make a garmin dial through some numbers in a hurry lol

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J. Bradford

Troy

Pm sent thank you!